Saturday, December 20, 2014

Anarcho-Libertarians: So Far Behind They Think They’re First

Back in October I wrote a post entitled The Trouble with Libertarianism in which I talked about the arrogance of libertarians.  Since then I have a received a gift in the form of a psuedo-libertarian who seems determined to prove me right.  In one of his most recent comments to me he stated, “Me continuing to attempt having a rational philosophical discussion w/you would be like Einstein trying to explain physics to a Neanderthal…”  He’s Einstein and I’m a Neanderthal.  Yep, I think that qualifies as arrogance and, strangely, the fact that he sees himself as Einstein and me as a lowly Neanderthal hasn’t prevented him from wanting to engage me in discussion; nor has his high opinion of his own superior intelligence given him the confidence to debate me without resorting to all the usual games that people with a losing position tend to resort to, such as mischaracterizing my argument in order to give himself the advantage.  I kind of doubt Einstein would have done that but let’s get on to the substance of things.

I should explain that this commenter – we’ll call him ‘Henry’ – is not really a libertarian.  From what I can tell (because Henry tends to be a bit coy about it) he’s a quasi-libertarian/quasi-anarchist or, to be more precise, he subscribes to an ideology (or whatever you’d like to call it) that exists only in his dreams.  To be fair Henry would claim that the same is true of the representative republic we ostensibly have and there’s a lot of truth in that.  No one could observe what’s transpired since the birth of the Constitution and claim with a straight face that it’s worked according to plan, especially not of late.  And I understand the complaint which says, in a nutshell, that the system concentrates power into the hands of a few individuals, perhaps more than they could have achieved without the power of the system.  But Henry’s dilemma is that he has no realistic alternative.  He asks me:  “If THEY [the Founders] couldn't construct a means to keep govt. limited who can?

Indeed.  Good question, Henry.  The answer is that nobody can, and yet government is going to exist.  That’s the rub, Henry.  Government is going to exist because it’s part of human nature.  Our old friend Webster’s Dictionary defines human nature as “the ways of thinking, feeling, and acting that are common to most people.”  Government is common to virtually all people in one form or another, so it certainly fits the description.  Your failure to accept this fact of human nature lends support to the second weakness of libertarianism that I mentioned in my post on the subject, so thank you again for chiming in. 

What I find interesting is the strategy of the anarcho-libertarians wherein they attack and attempt to marginalize the framers of the Constitution rather than simply put forth their own ideas for an alternative.  Apparently they believe that Americans’ allegiance to the Constitution and the representative republic put in place by the Founders is all owing to our irrational worship of the Founders, and those of us who don’t possess their Einstein-like minds are incapable of seeing it for the sham that it is.  The truth is that the Founders not only understood the perseverance of human nature both good and bad, they also had no illusions about the fragility of the republic. 

James Madison said:

“If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place, oblige it to control itself.” (The Federalist Papers, Federalist No. 51, February 8, 1788).

Alexander Hamilton said:

“As riches increase and accumulate in few hands, as luxury prevails in society, virtue will be in a greater degree considered as only a graceful appendage of wealth, and the tendency of things will be to depart from the republican standard. This is the real disposition of human nature; it is what neither the honorable member nor myself can correct. It is a common misfortunate that awaits our State constitution, as well as all others.”  (Speech to the New York Ratifying Convention, June, 1788).

Samuel Adams said:

“[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.”  (From an essay in The Public Advertiser, 1749)

So there was never any pretense that the Founders were promising perfection.  They went out of their way to warn that government is only as good as the people.  And the Founders’ intelligence?  I happen to believe, based upon what I’ve seen and read, that they were a pretty intelligent group, but that’s not necessarily what’s most important.  These men wrangled for years, perhaps decades, over the question of how to create a lasting system of self-government.   In that process they argued and debated and THOUGHT.  They concluded, rightly so, that the stateless, government-free existence you envision is impossible.  In other words, the Founders were light years ahead of you and your anarcho-libertarian friends, not the other way around. 

As for comparing yourself to Einstein, Einstein didn’t just come out and declare that Isaac Newton was wrong and then disparage Newton and beat his chest over his own superior intelligence.  He put his theories out there so that they could be critiqued and tested.  I’ve seen nothing like that from you. 

If you’ve got a better plan, let’s hear it – in detail.  I won’t hold my breath because I’ve been through all this before with the last anarcho-libertarian.  He at least tried to rise to the challenge and put forth some ideas on what he would do differently than the Founders did.  Problem was it was still just government by a different name, and he took great exception to my saying so.  No one likes having their precious prejudices challenged. 

I’m willing to give you one last shot for a fair and honest debate.  If you think I’m uneducated, then by all means educate me.  But if you come back with a bunch of smarmy “LOLs” and other nonsense then we’re done here, Einstein. 



~CW

26 comments:

  1. How can so-called 'citizens' (an artificial title/descriptive applied to a human-being) delegate powers to so-called 'representatives' (an artificial title/descriptive applied to a human-being) which none of them ever had to begin with (power to 'tax' and 'legislate')?

    How does a political system of hierarchy eliminate so-called "human-nature" when humans are involved, from top to bottom, in every aspect of it?

    How did the so-called 'founders' come to a "perfect car" understanding of 'human-nature'--a better understanding than we today have, despite the 'founders' being 220+ years behind current scientific standards regarding human behavior--when the formal/academic study of human-behavior (psychology, economics) were very much in their early stages?

    When can I borrow your time-machine (YOU: "govt. is always going to exist in its current form")?

    What qualifies you to speak w/authority on the 'founders/founding' as well as the legal aspects of the constitution? How many 17th and 18th century American History courses have you taken? How many law courses have you completed? I suspect your 'knowledge' comes from preconceived and idealized notions about the 'founders' you've had reinforced by discussing these matters w/others who have the EXACT SAME preconceived notions. I imagine you still think govt. functions the way you were taught it does in your 7th grade civics class.

    Oh, and to point out just one factual/logical error in your article:

    When OTHER PEOPLE have political authority over you, there is no such thing as "self-governance". This is a blatant lie/falsehood which the 'founders' said, and which uncritical fans of theirs' have repeated enough that they can't see the clear contradiction.

    You demonstrate a philosophical maxim:

    You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You have an uncritical, faith-based dedication to the constitution/founders/current system which was INCULCATED in you as a small child. You're brainwashed to put it more bluntly and all the logic/reason in the world won't change you mind. This is why you simply ignore fundamental Q's about your faith.





    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. >>“How can so-called 'citizens' (an artificial title/descriptive applied to a human-being) delegate powers to so-called 'representatives' (an artificial title/descriptive applied to a human-being) which none of them ever had to begin with (power to 'tax' and 'legislate')?”

      So we’re all living in a world of make believe, is that it? There’s really no such thing as ‘citizens’ or ‘representatives.’ That philosophy plus five bucks will get you a cup of coffee. It doesn’t change anything unless you can persuade a majority of people to see it that way as well, which you can’t.

      ‘Power’ is defined as “The ability or right to control people or things” (Webster’s Dictionary). Does the U.S. gov’t have the power to tax and legislate? Yes, it does, as evidenced by the fact that it taxes and legislates. Does it have the right to do so? That depends on who you ask. I’m guessing you would say “no,” but since they are doing it as we speak it hardly matters whether you agree that it’s their right or not.

      >>”How does a political system of hierarchy eliminate so-called "human-nature" when humans are involved, from top to bottom, in every aspect of it?”

      I never said human nature was “eliminated.”

      >>”How did the so-called 'founders' come to a "perfect car" understanding of 'human-nature'--a better understanding than we today have, despite the 'founders' being 220+ years behind current scientific standards regarding human behavior--when the formal/academic study of human-behavior (psychology, economics) were very much in their early stages?”

      First, I NEVER said the Founders built the perfect car (“You’re like an engineer claiming he’s designed the perfect car except while all of the other engineers are working with the challenge of incorporating a fuel system you just leave that out.”). The point I was making is that the Constitution is NOT necessarily perfect, but it at least was designed to recognize certain facts of life.

      Secondly, basic human nature has not changed over time. People are still, and will always be, driven by the human instinct to survive and the pursuit of self-interest. Some will want to control others. Some will want to take from others. Those things never change. What changes are cultural norms and attitudes, but the Constitution allows for this.

      Delete
    2. >>”When can I borrow your time-machine (YOU: "govt. is always going to exist in its current form")?”

      Once again you find it necessary to alter what I said in order to make your own argument work, which ought to tell you something about your argument. I NEVER said gov’t would exist “in its current form.” Gov’t exists in many forms, from tribal councils to dictatorships to theocracies to republics and perhaps in some form that we’ve never seen. Government is defined by Webster’s as “a particular system used for controlling a country, state, etc.” As long as people are being controlled, then government exists.

      >>”What qualifies you to speak w/authority on the 'founders/founding' as well as the legal aspects of the constitution?”

      I’m not sure what legal aspect you’re referring to but I’ve never claimed to be an expert on the Constitution. You don’t need to be an expert or a genius to observe what’s in the Constitution or how it’s worked in practice. All the studying and reading you’ve done with respect to the Constitution and the Founders seems to have been with the goal of proving that they were imperfect men and what they gave us was imperfect as well. Duh. You don’t seem to understand that there is no perfect solution to the problem of tyranny. What you should be asking yourself is the question that I’ve asked you multiple times now: What would you do differently in order to secure the freedom that you want? That’s where the REAL mental exercise is. I suspect you don’t want to go there because you don’t want to face the answer.

      >>”Oh, and to point out just one factual/logical error in your article: When OTHER PEOPLE have political authority over you, there is no such thing as "self-governance".

      Okay. I’ll give you that one (although I don’t think that would come as a surprise to the Founders, dummies though they may have been). Now tell me how you go about preventing other people from having political authority over you.

      >>”You have an uncritical, faith-based dedication to the constitution/founders/current system which was INCULCATED in you as a small child. You're brainwashed to put it more bluntly and all the logic/reason in the world won't change you mind. This is why you simply ignore fundamental Q's about your faith.”

      What questions have I ignored? When was the last time anyone else invested this kind of time to engage in genuine debate with you?

      I understand that you would like to assume I’m brainwashed and that I’ve given no thought to the meaning and implications of the Constitution or its alternatives but that’s not true. In any event I invited you to educate me if you’re so enlightened but you seem content to waste the opportunity clinging to false assumptions about me.

      Delete
  2. I'm not an Einstein, I just know how to think, instead of repeating (like a trained monkey) blatant falsehoods and untruths handed down over the centuries…which is what you and most other people have been turned into (trained monkeys).

    You're just as deluded as the people who once believed the King was actually a god. The only difference is that you've elevated the current, corporate-structure form of govt. (which evolved out of prior systems of King-worship) into the place once occupied by a King…in other words you think govt. is an Earthly manifestation of god. It really is a mental illness you suffer from.

    Statism: The Most Dangerous Religion (feat. Larken Rose)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uVV2Dcqt0

    "Since late Neolithic times, men in their political capacity have lived almost exclusively by myths."—Dr. James J. Martin

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. >>”I'm not an Einstein…”

      Gee, you don’t think so?

      >>”I just know how to think, instead of repeating (like a trained monkey)…”

      I don’t think you do know how to think. I think you know how to read, and that’s not the same thing. As I’ve noted before, you talk almost verbatim like the last anarcho-libertarian who was here, so if either of us is the trained, monkey that repeats what it’s learned, it’s you.

      >>… you think govt. is an Earthly manifestation of god. It really is a mental illness you suffer from.”

      It’s easy to debate people when you first misrepresent their argument, and especially if you make it ridiculous. Once again the tactic says much more about your argument than mine, as someone with a strong argument never needs to resort to such lameness.

      I said gov’t is going to exist because that is what human nature leads us to. I admire the Constitution because it’s the best system of gov’t that’s been devised thus far. Why don’t you deal with what I said, instead of building straw men.

      >>"Since late Neolithic times, men in their political capacity have lived almost exclusively by myths."—Dr. James J. Martin

      Hmmm…. It’s almost as if Dr. Martin believes in the endurance of human nature.

      Delete
  3. And, please, stop the pretense that you're interested in "honest debate".

    If you were you wouldn't constantly ignore simple questions like:

    "How can you or I delegate rights/powers we don't have?"

    "How does a political hierarchy eliminate 'human-nature'?"

    ReplyDelete
  4. Lysander Spooner demolished the idea that the constitution has any authority or relevance nearly 150 years ago (maybe its time the rest of you caught up!):

    "No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority by Lysander Spooner"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWESql2dXoc

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I hope Mr. Spooner got his free cup of coffee with that.

      BTW, what was that you were saying about the trained monkey repeating what he learned?

      Delete
  5. So much for "honest debate"…this is the advantage of having your own blog I guess…you get to type a bunch of BS and then prevent debate…

    Echo chamber
    Oh, echo chamber
    How I love thee
    You never disagree with me

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My, my, but you are impatient, especially for someone who took 8 days to respond.

      Delete
    2. 1. Humans exist. "Citizens" and "representatives" don't. They are, in reality, artificial designations such as "slave" and "slave-master" and don't change the underlying fact that we're simply talking about humans. Can you really not grasp this?

      2. I'm not sure how many times I have to ask this, but how can people delegate (which is the premise behind the alleged legitimacy of the constitution and "social contract" theory) rights/powers (essentially the power to coerce others) they don't individually have?

      3. I'll phrase this one differently: How can a system of political hierarchy mitigate against the more destructive urges of 'human-nature' when humans are involved in every aspect of it?

      4. When can I borrow your time machine? You keep saying "govt. will always exist", and the ONLY WAY you can say this is if you have some means of seeing into the future of humanity (however long that may be).

      5. You are brainwashed…so are most folks…so was I. The govt. forcibly takes people from their parents at the age of 5 and keeps them in govt. schools until they're 18. I believe Lenin said something like "Give me a child until age 8 and I'll make him a soviet for life." Are you really so naive to think that your rulers haven't inculcated a belief system (beneficial to them) into your mind in the 10-15,0000 hours they had you for? Do you think the society around you hasn't reinforced in you a bunch of pro-USA (i.e., your rulers) propaganda (how many times have you heard the ridiculous Nat'l Anthem, been given a USA-centric perspective in movies/TV series/'news' programs, the pro-military garbage at sporting events/recruitment commercials, flags everywhere, etc.) that you're probably not even aware of? You can recognize this brainwashing in others like the Hitler Youth or in those fanatical Muslim schools (madrassas) but, of course, not in yourself. I don't say you're brainwashed as an insult, but as a simple matter of fact.

      6. From an anti-intellectual like you, I'm not surprised you casually disregard great thinkers like Spooner and Larken Rose. Its easier than taking them on isn't it?

      Delete
    3. “1. Humans exist. "Citizens" and "representatives" don't…”

      Such silliness. What is the point of taking issue with these common, descriptive terms that are used to facilitate communication? You refer to me as a “conservative” (or “con”) because it facilitates my understanding of what you are trying to say to me. Isn’t “conservative” an artificial designation? I think the fact that we are all humans is understood (at least it is by sane people).

      “2. …how can people delegate (which is the premise behind the alleged legitimacy of the constitution and "social contract" theory) rights/powers (essentially the power to coerce others) they don't individually have?

      And if I were to agree with you that individuals don’t have the right or power to delegate, then what? Do you think you can dismantle the American system of gov’t by simply explaining to people that they have no power/right to delegate? If that’s the plan, all I can say is….good luck.

      It’s a moot point, and you are conflating rights and power. If you can’t prevent me from doing something, then I have the power to do it and whether you agree that it’s my right or not is irrelevant. If you CAN prevent me from doing something but you choose not to, then it becomes my right by default. Do you see any serious movement in this country to reject the method of gov’t we have (actually there is but It’s done under the pretense of working within the Constitution)? The answer is no, so the right is assumed.

      “3. How can a system of political hierarchy mitigate against the more destructive urges of 'human-nature' when humans are involved in every aspect of it?”

      The best we can do is hope that man’s instinct to ensure the continuity of his race wins out over the more destructive aspects. Do you think you would be immune from the very same dilemma under a libertarian gov’t or in the absence of gov’t? Even you can’t possibly be that deluded.

      Delete
    4. “4. You keep saying "govt. will always exist", and the ONLY WAY you can say this is if you have some means of seeing into the future of humanity (however long that may be).

      More silliness. You like to talk about rational thinking. When people have behaved in a certain way since the beginning of written history and when that behavior applies to people irrespective of geographical location a rational person assumes that the behavior is an indelible part of human nature. The argument that we can’t assume human nature will continue into the future is a child’s argument, so thank you for substantiating my original post once again.

      People often accuse liberals of lacking common sense, but the truth is not so much that they lack common sense, it’s that their motives are incompatible with common sense. The same applies to you here. You’re not stupid. You know very well that if people have behaved in a certain way for time eternal that it’s only logical to assume they will continue. But you also know that if you concede to the fact that gov’t is inevitable that the premise of your entire argument falls apart. We’re no longer talking about gov’t vs. no gov’t, we’re talking about what kind of gov’t. Clearly, you’re afraid to go there.

      “5. You are brainwashed…” blah, blah, blah…

      Your arrogance in assuming that only you are capable of seeing the brainwashing that goes on in the school system is stunning. I have news for you. All you did was trade one form of brainwashing for another. That’s what happens to people who look to others to tell them how to think instead of thinking for themselves.

      “6. From an anti-intellectual like you, I'm not surprised you casually disregard great thinkers like Spooner and Larken Rose. Its easier than taking them on isn't it?”

      Is your definition of an intellectual someone who relies on “great thinkers” to tell them how and what to think? My definition of an intellectual is someone who observes and then thinks for himself.
      In a way I am taking on Spooner and Rose, since you’re channeling them, but I have no interest in going on the offensive against them. Why should I? They’re no threat to me. They’re inconsequential.

      Delete
    5. OK, so you refuse to answer a simple Q…I don't blame you since it totally undermines your position and invalidates all of your ridiculous talk about us needing govt. because of "human-nature". You actually come pretty close to admitting, all of your blathering about "law and order" and the wonder of the 'founders' notwithstanding, that you abide by the law of the jungle (might makes right). Talk about taking a GIANT step BACKWARDS, philosophically...

      And, LOL, you don't really think you have any "power" do you? Your role is that of Useful Idiot and Tax-Cow, and I think you realize this on some level, which is why you try so hard to justify a totally irrational system; this is also why you continue voting Republican despite zero evidence that its an effective strategy to reinstate "limited constitutional govt"--to delude yourself into believing you have "power" because you help the GOP (which is embarrassed by even the meager 'small-govt' sentiment 'real' cons display but will take all the Useful Idiot votes they can get) win an election every now and then.

      When can I borrow your time-machine?

      Delete
    6. Apparently you are incapable of seeing or accepting reality. That’s a common problem with children and with adults who have immersed themselves in the fantasy philosophy of the anarchist. Your question (“how can people delegate rights/powers … they don't individually have?”) would be like asking ISIS how they can dominate, terrorize and murder people without their consent. How is that possible, Henry, when that power has not been delegated to them, hmmm? Your claim that they don’t have such power is DISPROVED by the fact that they’re doing it, but maybe you should go and simply explain to them that they don’t have that right. I’m sure they’ll listen to you. As I tried to previously impress upon your evidently very thick skull, whether they have the right or not is irrelevant so long as they are able to exercise that power. Rights are meaningless unless they can be defended. I’m sorry you’re offended by that reality but it’s true.

      Your refusal to see the relevance and inescapability of human nature is just mind-boggling. You sneer at me about the reality of “might makes right,” but let me remind you what you said on my post “The Trouble With Libertarianism:” You said: “…the future battles won't be between so-called 'conservatives' and 'liberals' … but between authoritarians (you) and anti-authoritarians (us)…and we don't intend to play nice by your go-along-to-get-along rules and "gentleman's agreements".

      What did you mean when you said you “don’t intend to play nice?” That certainly sounds like someone who wants to assert his right by might. Hypocrisy is a natural by-product of dishonesty and/or cluelessness, Henry.

      You spend a lot of time laughing out loud for someone who has failed to score any points in this debate, and your ridiculous smack talk is boring me. Your like a guy in a prison cell laughing and pointing at the guy in the next cell because he hasn’t figured out how to escape, but you don’t see the absurdity of your own situation. LOL, Henry!

      I’ve given you more than enough chances to explain to me exactly what you would do differently and it’s obvious that you don’t know, but you’re not man enough to admit it. Those precious prejudices will get you every time, Henry.

      Delete
  6. I'm not sure why I'm wasting time w/someone who probably thinks she "saved America" by helping elect a coming GOP congressional majority who will do nothing to significantly reverse course; someone who will obediently go and pull the lever for Jeb Bush (or whatever neocon hack/turd the GOP Central Committee decides to nominate) in 2016…

    Many of us who actually have a grasp on reality see today's Amerikans as being dangerously similar to Germans in the 1930's…ready and eager for dictatorship/totalitarianism, people w/o morals or any kind of ability to think for themselves…dumb, obedient sheep just waiting to be told where to go and what to do. Patriotards who are itching for more war so that their ridiculously large and rich army (whose budget is larger than most other nations' economies) can go kill more innocent people and beat up on smaller and poorer armies…what deranged cowards Amerikans have become!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. “Amerikans?” But I thought we were all just humans! (BTW, switching the c for a ‘k’ – that’s brilliant. You really have no idea how impressed I am. Really).

      Putting aside the fantastic irony of YOU dissing others because they have no ability to think for themselves, I would just like to point out that the election and re-election of an anti-military, anti-American POTUS is kind of a big flaw in your Germany comparison.

      Looks like we’re in the same boat, since I don’t know why I’m wasting time debating someone who thinks like a child. Feel free to come back when you grow up.

      Delete
    2. RINO Revenge: Graham, McCain Remove Tea Party Foes

      http://benswann.com/rino-revenge-graham-mccain-remove-tea-party-foes/


      LOL…'conservative' idiots elect GOPers who are actively engaged in an attempt to eliminate what pathetic 'small-govt' sentiment exists among the 'real' cons of the GOP…you guys just LOVE the taste of McCain and co's spit don't you?

      Delete
    3. I guess laughing at me for what others do is the best that you can muster. You're a big disappointment, Henry.

      Delete
  7. The 28 redacted pages from the 911 Report…why are they redacted and for whose benefit? Could it be that its been known for over a decade now by 'our' own govt. that "our good allies" Israel (neocons' favorite nation) and Saudi Arabia (GW's hand-holding pals) provided material support to the terrorists?

    "911 who is the government protecting? The 28 pages"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU769fPCWSo

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. LIBERTARIANS FOR OBAMA

      http://libertarianobama.blogspot.com/

      Hahahahahaha!

      Delete
  8. The 2 simple Q's which destroyed your position:

    1. How can individuals delegate rights/powers they don't have?

    2. How does a political hierarchical system solve the problem of so-called 'human-nature'?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. LOL, Henry. I guess no matter how many times I answer your questions you’re just going to pretend it didn’t happen, just like you pretend that people aren’t exercising the very power that you claim doesn’t exist. I suppose I can’t blame you, since you’ve got nothing else. BTW, I learned long ago that anarcho-libertarians have odd definitions for what qualifies as “destroying” their opponents. Instead of trading smack talk with you I think I’ll just let others be the judge of whose position was destroyed.

      How do you exempt yourself from gov’t, Henry? It is, as I think you know, a riddle that can’t be solved. Let’s THINK this through together (I know you prefer reading over thinking but just give it a try please). I, CW, declare that I am exempt from gov’t. Well that’s not going to work unless I can get everyone else around me to agree not to impose their rules on me, and that’s not going to happen because no one is going to let me be exempt unless they can also be exempt. Right? Also, some people like the rules, or at least some of them (I have to confess I like the rules against murder and rape, but hey that’s just me). So let’s say that a bunch of us get together and exempt ourselves as a group, and we let those people who want their rules and their gov’t do what they want (live and let live, right Henry?). But how do we distinguish who’s who? Well I guess we could establish our own gov’t-free territory. Uh oh, that sounds kind of like a state, eh? But it’s okay because there won’t be any gov’t and we just won’t give it a name. Now, how do we keep out those who want to impose rules? I know! We’ll make a law that there can’t be any laws. But how will we enforce the law against laws? Ruh roh!

      Delete
    2. STILL no answer!

      Why did it take humanity so long to recognize that chattel slavery was wrong/evil? Humans learn slowly and tend to accept whatever is considered "normal"…which is frustrating for those of us more advanced, but it is what it is I guess.

      I'm not saying freedom is gonna break out anytime soon, and from our little talk (you actually consider yourself PRO-liberty!!!) and simply looking around at the insane world, its obvious that humanity has taken a BIIIG step backwards in the last 150 years or so (since the Communist Manifesto was written and socialism and the idea of Collectivism became ascendant, yes, even among so-called 'real' conservatives)…but logic is logic and reason is reason and you either submit to it, or you ascribe to illogic and anti-reason. The only thing we the sane can do is continue promoting the truth and hope that some day, somehow we can reach the brainwashed masses (10,000+ hours spent being obedience-trained by your rulers!)…we'll either get there or we won't, but whether we do or not changes nothing about the REALITY of the current system.

      The Dr. Martin quote sums it up nicely:

      "Since neolithic times, men in their political capacity have lived almost exclusively by myths."

      Some of us have advanced past neolithic times and the need to have a "higher authority" above us, watching and controlling us for our own good...

      Delete
    3. Apparently Einstein is having trouble understanding my answer to his question (“how can people delegate rights/powers … they don't individually have?”), and is trying to mask his confusion by pretending that he can’t hear the answer.

      You are living by the delusion that a “right” is whatever YOU define it to be. So much for your “advanced” thinking, Einstein. I’ll explain it one last time, and then unless you want to act like an adult and respond to what I said (I’m betting you won’t) I will assume that we have reached the limits of your intellectual capacity and we will be done here. Your question is based on a faulty premise, a premise that is DISPROVED by simple powers of observation (maybe you’d like to deny that we have the power to observe?). Would you like to explain to me how I’m wrong by that statement?

      “…logic is logic and reason is reason and you either submit to it, or you ascribe to illogic and anti-reason.”

      The irony of such a statement coming from YOU is the richest thing I can imagine.

      “Why did it take humanity so long to recognize that chattel slavery was wrong/evil?”

      Because (1) CULTURAL attitudes change over time (and if you doubt that look up the history of slavery and see if it was rejected by “humanity” all at once or if changes occurred by region); and (2) our consciences are often awakened when it becomes most convenient (i.e. we are less reliant upon forced manual labor for our livelihood).

      But having said that, remove the word “chattel” from your statement and I would submit that much of humanity STILL sees nothing wrong with slavery. They’ve simply realized that in order to avoid violence (or should I say, be on the losing end of violence), that they have to be much more clever about co-opting the fruits of another man’s labor. That’s where communism and socialism come into play. They are, as I’m sure you’re well aware, just another way of turning people into slaves. So much for the evolution of humanity, eh? It’s almost as if human nature never really changes….

      >>”Some of us have advanced past neolithic times and the need to have a "higher authority" above us, watching and controlling us for our own good...”

      I hope you got your free coffee with that because you’re in the same boat with the rest of us.

      The ball is in your court now, Einstein, and you have two challenges. The first is to respond to my answer to your question (and by all means, explain how I’m wrong if you want to) and the second is to answer my question: How do you exempt yourself from gov’t? If you rise to the challenge we’ll continue. If not then this is good-bye.

      Delete